Post by Brandon O'Brien on Feb 26, 2011 12:50:21 GMT -5
"Micronational Theory" is part of the Kampong Collection of the MacDermott Library's Special Collection.
Micronational Theory
[/i]St. Fenix[/i]
What is a micronation? Many nations over the years have tried to explain to any person from all over the planet who happened to stumble on such a site. well you can argue that a micronation is just a very tightly knit group of people trying to create the conditions of a seperate country from their own knowledge. And to expand their knowledge through interaction in this said simulation. This interaction is something that all humans enjoy in life in different forms. the most common is the conversation. Language being the prime medium with which humans choose to convey their seperate ideas. But in order to understand this part of human nature we must look at its building block: the conversation.
Conversation is the same no matter which language you speak. One person begins it by wishing to share information with another or in order to gain information from that individual or individuals. Human nature is a curious one in that it wishes to know. Even the laziest of spirits have a curiousity that can be aroused should all the right events occur. But what does this have to do with Micronations you ask? The answere is quite simply, everything. Micronations exist beacause of the curiosity in Human nature. This stems from our having free will. Or in other words we can do whatever we wish. These actions impact everything. From the smallest movement of a finger to the crumbling of a mountain at the hands of men. they all effect something. In the case of the finger, this could just be an index finger you may point with at another individual to get an idea across. You can link everything in this world with movement and thought. Two primordial gifts given to us as a birthright. With movement we may look at our sorroundings and manipulate them to our advantage. With thought we may dream the impossible and use movement to acheive these dreams.
But what does this do with conversation you have to ask? Once again the answere is simple, It has to do everything with it. Human vocal chords vibrate with the air we pass over them. We then manipulate the sound with our mouths and throats to create a sound that other humans can recognise. This sounds is speech. Although there are hundreds of languages in the world, one must not forget that with all things that deal with humans some things are universal, others are'nt. And language is not exempt from this. All humans in the world with ears understand that AGHHHHH! means something is wrong. There are other tidbits in every action we do that hint of a universal language. But this has little to do with Micronations. And will act as an important part of another theory I will publish.
Micronationalism is human interaction in one of its most refined forms. We use speech, in a way that our other senses can make up for the lack of hearing. This is called writing. This system has many benefits to its knower. It can ensure that information stays the same, no matter how long ago you wrote it. It can also contain things easily forgotten by man, such as large numerals or words with archaic or complex meanings. Although this too is subject to change it is a very important system. It allows like minded individuals to understand that person's mind since the writing itself is available to the general public in a thing we call a Forum. Forums have always acted as a medium of communication to others who you never knew, and with the limits on technology may never know. We cannot transfer images in way that can completely immitate human speech but we in fact can by writing our thoughts into manifestations that are read by others. These manifestations in the most blatant terms are posts. They are the heart and soul of any forum, and much more importantly micronation.
Now that I have explained the mediums of communication that we abide by when we work on, appear in, or join, a micronation. I will explain to the world exactly what a micronation is.
A micronation is a nation inside of two nations. One being the nation that the individual belongs to on the planet Earth, the next world being the Internet itself. This electronic world is one of the most popular inventions in the world beacause it provides a faster method of communication and seeks to immitate our own world. It provided people who live in far off regions a voice in a giant community that is broken down into smaller communities. Just Like the dual-reality we currently know, the internet is broken down as well. The first breakdown is led by the Language barrier. The second is by electronic controls (parental controls, or electronic constraints that don't let people view parts of the internet). The last is by groups of people. This is where Micronations belong. In this last part of the breakdown of the internet. Micronations are groups of like-minded people who ban together to share a common ideal. This ideal is creating what we associate with a nation in an electronic environment. This is acheived by creating a nation and creating a forum for the said nation. Now that we have the Micronation placed comfortably in the internet, we can continue into Micronations themselves.
Micronations serve as a meeting place for those who wish to re-create the limits that are set upon them by the real world in the electronic world. We re-create the limits that we live by into an electronic environment that we have control over, instead of something that we don't such as the real world. this serves two important purposes for Humans. the first is that we get to see possibilities. Humans by nature love to see possibilities and to see a different path from your current one is very interesting since it hints of an optional way of doing things that the human himself may want to follow. The Second is that we get to further understand our own limits and possibilities by learning about them in order to gain a hold into our new micronation. Both are something that many Humans find enticing. Proof of this is in the American Gaming industry, Namely Maxis. Maxis is a company that is owned by electronic arts and is famous for making genre of game. This genre is Simulation. And they have proceeded to break many gaming records beacause of Human nature to like to tinker with his limits. Or the limits that he has provided himself with in a way that won't permanently alter his position to a lower standing.
these limits that we take for granted in the macroworld are these: Politics, religion, and ideals. Politics being a part of the human soul that cries out for an order to ensure that our livelihoods, or things that we need for life are gauranteed to us through a system setup by humans. And as another way to setup limits to ensure that we have a place in human society that we like. Religion is something that all humans experience in some form or another. Even Athiests in some form expierience it. how you ask? By their mere opinion of it. I won't go into details since this is a really touchy subject amongst people. But the mere opinion of a religion is expierience about it. Athiests simply think that there is no god. In this way they expierience religion by stating that they don't believe in something that attempts to explain abstract ideals. Religion is something that humans use to explain ideals that they have no knowledge of. Such as Death, Creation, the Human Condition, and something as miniscule as why darkness and light exists. Religions often explain good parts of these or all of them, all in one tight neat package. The last limit that we impose on ourselves is Ideals. Since there are many ideals that I could explain, I will explain the chief among them in the Micronational world. This difference between Simulationism and Seccesionism and why todays world is how it is. However, before I go into such a detail I will explain short history of Micronationalism as seen by me.
It is of my knowledge that Micronationalism started at the dawn of a new era, the computer age. Specifically at the birth of the internet. as such in internet years Micronationalism is very archaic but esteemed as one of the parts of the beggining internet. In this age there were a few nations who began a tradition that would be followed for years to come. the first Micronation that I know of is the kingdom of Tallosa. Tallosa was founded in Michegan sometime in the 1960's by a group of people who felt it would be a good form of entertainment to declare the land they lived on a seperate country and operate as such. (all in jest of course) They created a system of government patterned off of an existing but rather archaic form of Human government, The Monarchy. they began to flourish beacause many people of this time were beggining to fathom exactly how much computers would play in simulation. a concept that was limited to human Drama, arts, and music. But with the advent of the computer this was changing. People were able to simulate with people farther away. However this was'nt our brand of micronationalism, no it was far more simple, and far less complex. Since computers of the day were un-reliable and the internet was still a plaything, the people of Tallosa actually met their citizens in real life. they were famous for having Tallosan meetings in their town. However time passed and tallosa kept growing. But as with everything Human makes, there is another who wishes to copy that human but throw his own spin on it. thus many other Seccesionist Micronations began to take shape.
They were seccesionist beacause they wished to create a nation out of already known land. since the Internet did'nt have the form it has today, it mainly served as a communication medium. and many parts of the nation took place in real life. People still have seccesionist flags that were made custom by flag stores. However more time passed and then a curiosity happened. there were hundreds of seccesionist nations, and pure simulation or otherwise complete simulation became a reality. D&D a popular and common American simulation game is a good example of this. Players play a game of chance in order to aquire things that don't exist save in the mind of the players. However for a long time the internet was'nt something that you could use as ground for something like this, Mainly due to a lack of communication mediums that let many people talk at once and saved their work so they could refer to it. chat-rooms moved far too fast for this, and Email was far too slow and only one way. Computers that the First tallosans were using were far less usable then the computers the new tallosans were using. as such it began to become a popular medium of communication and a method of storing ideals. all of this thanks to the advent of the humble Forum. Now we can explain the curiousity. This Curiosity was Simulationism.
It began with a country called Babkha. Again I hear you say "What was so extraordinary about this?" With our advantage of hindisight the only thing we can see different about this happening is that it was an online first it was the first simulationist nation. It created its entire history, and created an entire world for itself. the Seccesionists who were rapidly becomming old and were beggining to vanish from the Micronational scene were outraged by this turn of events. since at that time it was socially unacceptable to make up your own history and exist within the confines of the internet alone. However the seccesionists were unfortunate in that they did'nt understand what the Internet would soon become. It spread its electronic tendrils all over the world and began to encompass humanity itself in its silicon bubble. Simulationism was a force to be reckoned with even since its conception. The Seccesionists felt that simulationism betrayed Micronationalism beacause it was not Micro anymore, it had become electro-nationalism. Which actually still fits it far better then Micronationalism. The seccesionists felt that the simulationists were wrong beacause they did'nt operate on solid Earth land anymore but on electronic Secondary land. This provoked much criticism by the seccesionists that is still felt by the simulationists today. Many still get defensive if they hear anything about the debate between these two ideals. and who could blame them? the simulationists had to hit the ground running in order to prevent being stampeded by the seccesionists. But amongst this chaos there was a miracle Babkha no matter how it was castigated by its peers, began to flourish. this astounded The Seccesionists who realised that the Simulationists had just tapped into a deeper form of simulation that many people on the internet still enjoy. Eventually they grew into a powerfull nation with many members, and the seccesionists began to realise that they were outgrowing Micronationalism. Many began to leave. this left the Simulationists with more power then they could of imagined. all thanks to the evolution of computers and the internet.
Then the same the same process began to take place that had at one time created all the seccesionist nations. people began to feel that they should take this good idea and give it their own spin. Thus simulationist nations began to take shape. What kept Simulationism alive was its mass attraction people liked being able to create everything about their nation, from their world, even to their language. This outclassed the Seccesionists who lacked these elements due to the limits of our real world that were beggining to cruelly make themselves known. The result was even greater hate beacause simulationism was taking over and the seccesionists were begging to lose lots of ground. Huge Micronational disputes erupted over this, and many veterans of these arguments still live with us today. Ever ready to continue the fight that began so long ago.
By and large after several years simulationism became larger then seccesionism. this is mainly due to the formers growth and the latter decline. Simulationism began to replace seccesionism.
Now I hear you say this "why did it end this way? could have Seccesionism one?" To be quite honest, It never stood a chance. Simulationism is part of the evolution of the internet from a communication place to a simulation place. you can also call it a by-product of this transition. People who use the internet now are much different from those who first used it. Often times people live entire lives seperatly on the internet. this uniquely Second world phenomenon began to effect every part of the internet. Leaving no corner untouched. We still continue to see the results of this change as it is still going on. Myspace, Forum popularity, and chatroom lovers, all are parts of this transition from just communication to simulation in another world. It is no coincidence that people take what other people say on the internet much harder then what they take in real life, beacause of one: they take it in through a differerent sense rather then their ears, and two: they are comparatively more relaxed in the created world of the internet and let themselves loose far easier and quicker then in real-life. beacause of this they are technically immature to content on the internet. They have'nt had as much expierience with the internet as they have had with their real lives and thus take criticism in the real-world far better then on the internet. this is why it hurts many people so, and propels them to say things that they later often regret.
How does this effect Micronationalism? In this way.
Take a good look at modern micronations. You will see the remnents of the Seccesionists and a very strong community of simulationists that work together for their common good. now you ask: "Wait did I misunderstand what you just said!?" No you did'nt. Simulationism is far stronger beacause it fits into the changing Internet world far better then Seccesionism with its far more strenous requirements of having to meet in the real world, and base everything off of real things. In Simulationism you can make up everything you like, thus you understand it far better and far faster. Simulationism is far more flexible beacause of this. and this is why it has triumphed.
Simulationism will stand in the end victorious whether people wish to know this or not. But the award for longetivity will go to Seccesionism. as is the way of the internet, no idea ever completely dissapears and we will continue to see Seccesionist nations being formed, albeit far less hostile to simulationists then their ancestors.
Even with this said, Micronationalism is an outreach of the human condition to witness possibilites in a way that for only a few minutes or hours a day you can live in another nation, that speaks another language without having to spend money or time doing so. It is a sad hobby to those who don't understand the electronic second world that we know as the internet. But unbeknowngst to many, it is part of the next evolutionary step in human progress, our changing to become a fast-paced digital race, where we explore our possibilites ar faster then anyone before us.
Although I may be castigated by my peers in the Micronational world for writing this paper I resign myself to their comments in hopes that others may understand what I have just said and that they will understand that the Internet is something of its own, and that even I can't predict where it will go. this is the very nature of the internet. It is created by billions of individuals who are all different in some form. thus there will always be another idea that we can't predict. We are'nt everywhere all of the time, and by far no one of us knows everything.
thus I leave everyone who reads this with with saying:
Micronationalism is but a hobby, But is also a reach-out of human nature in one of its most evolved and complex forms.
It is a grand thing and I have never once regretted being part of it.
-St. Fenix [/quote]
Micronational Theory
What is a micronation? Many nations over the years have tried to explain to any person from all over the planet who happened to stumble on such a site. well you can argue that a micronation is just a very tightly knit group of people trying to create the conditions of a seperate country from their own knowledge. And to expand their knowledge through interaction in this said simulation. This interaction is something that all humans enjoy in life in different forms. the most common is the conversation. Language being the prime medium with which humans choose to convey their seperate ideas. But in order to understand this part of human nature we must look at its building block: the conversation.
Conversation is the same no matter which language you speak. One person begins it by wishing to share information with another or in order to gain information from that individual or individuals. Human nature is a curious one in that it wishes to know. Even the laziest of spirits have a curiousity that can be aroused should all the right events occur. But what does this have to do with Micronations you ask? The answere is quite simply, everything. Micronations exist beacause of the curiosity in Human nature. This stems from our having free will. Or in other words we can do whatever we wish. These actions impact everything. From the smallest movement of a finger to the crumbling of a mountain at the hands of men. they all effect something. In the case of the finger, this could just be an index finger you may point with at another individual to get an idea across. You can link everything in this world with movement and thought. Two primordial gifts given to us as a birthright. With movement we may look at our sorroundings and manipulate them to our advantage. With thought we may dream the impossible and use movement to acheive these dreams.
But what does this do with conversation you have to ask? Once again the answere is simple, It has to do everything with it. Human vocal chords vibrate with the air we pass over them. We then manipulate the sound with our mouths and throats to create a sound that other humans can recognise. This sounds is speech. Although there are hundreds of languages in the world, one must not forget that with all things that deal with humans some things are universal, others are'nt. And language is not exempt from this. All humans in the world with ears understand that AGHHHHH! means something is wrong. There are other tidbits in every action we do that hint of a universal language. But this has little to do with Micronations. And will act as an important part of another theory I will publish.
Micronationalism is human interaction in one of its most refined forms. We use speech, in a way that our other senses can make up for the lack of hearing. This is called writing. This system has many benefits to its knower. It can ensure that information stays the same, no matter how long ago you wrote it. It can also contain things easily forgotten by man, such as large numerals or words with archaic or complex meanings. Although this too is subject to change it is a very important system. It allows like minded individuals to understand that person's mind since the writing itself is available to the general public in a thing we call a Forum. Forums have always acted as a medium of communication to others who you never knew, and with the limits on technology may never know. We cannot transfer images in way that can completely immitate human speech but we in fact can by writing our thoughts into manifestations that are read by others. These manifestations in the most blatant terms are posts. They are the heart and soul of any forum, and much more importantly micronation.
Now that I have explained the mediums of communication that we abide by when we work on, appear in, or join, a micronation. I will explain to the world exactly what a micronation is.
A micronation is a nation inside of two nations. One being the nation that the individual belongs to on the planet Earth, the next world being the Internet itself. This electronic world is one of the most popular inventions in the world beacause it provides a faster method of communication and seeks to immitate our own world. It provided people who live in far off regions a voice in a giant community that is broken down into smaller communities. Just Like the dual-reality we currently know, the internet is broken down as well. The first breakdown is led by the Language barrier. The second is by electronic controls (parental controls, or electronic constraints that don't let people view parts of the internet). The last is by groups of people. This is where Micronations belong. In this last part of the breakdown of the internet. Micronations are groups of like-minded people who ban together to share a common ideal. This ideal is creating what we associate with a nation in an electronic environment. This is acheived by creating a nation and creating a forum for the said nation. Now that we have the Micronation placed comfortably in the internet, we can continue into Micronations themselves.
Micronations serve as a meeting place for those who wish to re-create the limits that are set upon them by the real world in the electronic world. We re-create the limits that we live by into an electronic environment that we have control over, instead of something that we don't such as the real world. this serves two important purposes for Humans. the first is that we get to see possibilities. Humans by nature love to see possibilities and to see a different path from your current one is very interesting since it hints of an optional way of doing things that the human himself may want to follow. The Second is that we get to further understand our own limits and possibilities by learning about them in order to gain a hold into our new micronation. Both are something that many Humans find enticing. Proof of this is in the American Gaming industry, Namely Maxis. Maxis is a company that is owned by electronic arts and is famous for making genre of game. This genre is Simulation. And they have proceeded to break many gaming records beacause of Human nature to like to tinker with his limits. Or the limits that he has provided himself with in a way that won't permanently alter his position to a lower standing.
these limits that we take for granted in the macroworld are these: Politics, religion, and ideals. Politics being a part of the human soul that cries out for an order to ensure that our livelihoods, or things that we need for life are gauranteed to us through a system setup by humans. And as another way to setup limits to ensure that we have a place in human society that we like. Religion is something that all humans experience in some form or another. Even Athiests in some form expierience it. how you ask? By their mere opinion of it. I won't go into details since this is a really touchy subject amongst people. But the mere opinion of a religion is expierience about it. Athiests simply think that there is no god. In this way they expierience religion by stating that they don't believe in something that attempts to explain abstract ideals. Religion is something that humans use to explain ideals that they have no knowledge of. Such as Death, Creation, the Human Condition, and something as miniscule as why darkness and light exists. Religions often explain good parts of these or all of them, all in one tight neat package. The last limit that we impose on ourselves is Ideals. Since there are many ideals that I could explain, I will explain the chief among them in the Micronational world. This difference between Simulationism and Seccesionism and why todays world is how it is. However, before I go into such a detail I will explain short history of Micronationalism as seen by me.
It is of my knowledge that Micronationalism started at the dawn of a new era, the computer age. Specifically at the birth of the internet. as such in internet years Micronationalism is very archaic but esteemed as one of the parts of the beggining internet. In this age there were a few nations who began a tradition that would be followed for years to come. the first Micronation that I know of is the kingdom of Tallosa. Tallosa was founded in Michegan sometime in the 1960's by a group of people who felt it would be a good form of entertainment to declare the land they lived on a seperate country and operate as such. (all in jest of course) They created a system of government patterned off of an existing but rather archaic form of Human government, The Monarchy. they began to flourish beacause many people of this time were beggining to fathom exactly how much computers would play in simulation. a concept that was limited to human Drama, arts, and music. But with the advent of the computer this was changing. People were able to simulate with people farther away. However this was'nt our brand of micronationalism, no it was far more simple, and far less complex. Since computers of the day were un-reliable and the internet was still a plaything, the people of Tallosa actually met their citizens in real life. they were famous for having Tallosan meetings in their town. However time passed and tallosa kept growing. But as with everything Human makes, there is another who wishes to copy that human but throw his own spin on it. thus many other Seccesionist Micronations began to take shape.
They were seccesionist beacause they wished to create a nation out of already known land. since the Internet did'nt have the form it has today, it mainly served as a communication medium. and many parts of the nation took place in real life. People still have seccesionist flags that were made custom by flag stores. However more time passed and then a curiosity happened. there were hundreds of seccesionist nations, and pure simulation or otherwise complete simulation became a reality. D&D a popular and common American simulation game is a good example of this. Players play a game of chance in order to aquire things that don't exist save in the mind of the players. However for a long time the internet was'nt something that you could use as ground for something like this, Mainly due to a lack of communication mediums that let many people talk at once and saved their work so they could refer to it. chat-rooms moved far too fast for this, and Email was far too slow and only one way. Computers that the First tallosans were using were far less usable then the computers the new tallosans were using. as such it began to become a popular medium of communication and a method of storing ideals. all of this thanks to the advent of the humble Forum. Now we can explain the curiousity. This Curiosity was Simulationism.
It began with a country called Babkha. Again I hear you say "What was so extraordinary about this?" With our advantage of hindisight the only thing we can see different about this happening is that it was an online first it was the first simulationist nation. It created its entire history, and created an entire world for itself. the Seccesionists who were rapidly becomming old and were beggining to vanish from the Micronational scene were outraged by this turn of events. since at that time it was socially unacceptable to make up your own history and exist within the confines of the internet alone. However the seccesionists were unfortunate in that they did'nt understand what the Internet would soon become. It spread its electronic tendrils all over the world and began to encompass humanity itself in its silicon bubble. Simulationism was a force to be reckoned with even since its conception. The Seccesionists felt that simulationism betrayed Micronationalism beacause it was not Micro anymore, it had become electro-nationalism. Which actually still fits it far better then Micronationalism. The seccesionists felt that the simulationists were wrong beacause they did'nt operate on solid Earth land anymore but on electronic Secondary land. This provoked much criticism by the seccesionists that is still felt by the simulationists today. Many still get defensive if they hear anything about the debate between these two ideals. and who could blame them? the simulationists had to hit the ground running in order to prevent being stampeded by the seccesionists. But amongst this chaos there was a miracle Babkha no matter how it was castigated by its peers, began to flourish. this astounded The Seccesionists who realised that the Simulationists had just tapped into a deeper form of simulation that many people on the internet still enjoy. Eventually they grew into a powerfull nation with many members, and the seccesionists began to realise that they were outgrowing Micronationalism. Many began to leave. this left the Simulationists with more power then they could of imagined. all thanks to the evolution of computers and the internet.
Then the same the same process began to take place that had at one time created all the seccesionist nations. people began to feel that they should take this good idea and give it their own spin. Thus simulationist nations began to take shape. What kept Simulationism alive was its mass attraction people liked being able to create everything about their nation, from their world, even to their language. This outclassed the Seccesionists who lacked these elements due to the limits of our real world that were beggining to cruelly make themselves known. The result was even greater hate beacause simulationism was taking over and the seccesionists were begging to lose lots of ground. Huge Micronational disputes erupted over this, and many veterans of these arguments still live with us today. Ever ready to continue the fight that began so long ago.
By and large after several years simulationism became larger then seccesionism. this is mainly due to the formers growth and the latter decline. Simulationism began to replace seccesionism.
Now I hear you say this "why did it end this way? could have Seccesionism one?" To be quite honest, It never stood a chance. Simulationism is part of the evolution of the internet from a communication place to a simulation place. you can also call it a by-product of this transition. People who use the internet now are much different from those who first used it. Often times people live entire lives seperatly on the internet. this uniquely Second world phenomenon began to effect every part of the internet. Leaving no corner untouched. We still continue to see the results of this change as it is still going on. Myspace, Forum popularity, and chatroom lovers, all are parts of this transition from just communication to simulation in another world. It is no coincidence that people take what other people say on the internet much harder then what they take in real life, beacause of one: they take it in through a differerent sense rather then their ears, and two: they are comparatively more relaxed in the created world of the internet and let themselves loose far easier and quicker then in real-life. beacause of this they are technically immature to content on the internet. They have'nt had as much expierience with the internet as they have had with their real lives and thus take criticism in the real-world far better then on the internet. this is why it hurts many people so, and propels them to say things that they later often regret.
How does this effect Micronationalism? In this way.
Take a good look at modern micronations. You will see the remnents of the Seccesionists and a very strong community of simulationists that work together for their common good. now you ask: "Wait did I misunderstand what you just said!?" No you did'nt. Simulationism is far stronger beacause it fits into the changing Internet world far better then Seccesionism with its far more strenous requirements of having to meet in the real world, and base everything off of real things. In Simulationism you can make up everything you like, thus you understand it far better and far faster. Simulationism is far more flexible beacause of this. and this is why it has triumphed.
Simulationism will stand in the end victorious whether people wish to know this or not. But the award for longetivity will go to Seccesionism. as is the way of the internet, no idea ever completely dissapears and we will continue to see Seccesionist nations being formed, albeit far less hostile to simulationists then their ancestors.
Even with this said, Micronationalism is an outreach of the human condition to witness possibilites in a way that for only a few minutes or hours a day you can live in another nation, that speaks another language without having to spend money or time doing so. It is a sad hobby to those who don't understand the electronic second world that we know as the internet. But unbeknowngst to many, it is part of the next evolutionary step in human progress, our changing to become a fast-paced digital race, where we explore our possibilites ar faster then anyone before us.
Although I may be castigated by my peers in the Micronational world for writing this paper I resign myself to their comments in hopes that others may understand what I have just said and that they will understand that the Internet is something of its own, and that even I can't predict where it will go. this is the very nature of the internet. It is created by billions of individuals who are all different in some form. thus there will always be another idea that we can't predict. We are'nt everywhere all of the time, and by far no one of us knows everything.
thus I leave everyone who reads this with with saying:
Micronationalism is but a hobby, But is also a reach-out of human nature in one of its most evolved and complex forms.
It is a grand thing and I have never once regretted being part of it.
-St. Fenix [/quote]